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In this episode, I’m joined by Jamie Livingston, Founder and CEO of Livingston James Group and Co-Chair of the youth leadership charity Columba 1400.
Jamie brings decades of experience placing senior leaders into C-suite and board-level roles. In our conversation, he reflects on how leadership expectations have evolved from the traditional command-and-control model to the need for leaders who are purpose-led, agile, and capable of navigating complexity, paradox, and moral dilemmas.
We explore:
- What organisations are really looking for in executive leaders today
- The tension between competency-based assessment and deeper human capacities
- How Livingston James has embedded purpose through ownership, structure, and values
- The role of moral courage in leadership
- The importance of early moral and intellectual development, with a nod to the German idea of Bildung and Jamie’s work with young people through Columba 1400
Jacqueline Conway 00:01
The organisational peak is a perilous environment. It’s more complex and challenging than anything that’s gone before, and as a consequence, both executive tenure and corporate longevity are decreasing to survive and thrive at the perilous peak. Executive leaders need to balance their functional leadership, a focus on execution with enterprise leadership that is ensuring the organisation adapts in our new world. That’s what we’ll be exploring in the advanced executive leadership podcast. Welcome. I’m your host, Jacqueline Conway. I’m the Founder and Managing Director of waldencroft, a consulting practice dedicated to helping executives and executive teams anticipate, navigate and lead at the perilous peak. In today’s episode, I’m joined by Jamie Livingston, founder and CEO of Livingston James group, who’s also the co chair of the charity Columba 1400 Jamie has spent decades placing senior leaders in C suite and other senior roles, giving him a nuanced view of how leadership expectations have changed and what’s now being asked of those at the helm. It’s a wide ranging conversation where we hear what Jamie has experienced as the evolution of executive leadership from command and control to one in which leaders are more purpose led and who can navigate ambiguity, paradox and moral dilemmas. We explore company ownership and organisation design, as Jamie shares how his own business has embedded purpose, not just in words, but in the ownership structure, decision making and everyday practice, and how that’s helped them remain adaptive in uncertain times. We also touch on deeper ideas from how society shapes our capacity to lead with integrity, to the German concept of bildung, a form of moral and intellectual development that, as Jamie argues, should begin long before someone reaches the C suite. This is a conversation about leadership as principled action, and I hope you find it as thought provoking as I did.
Jamie Livingston 02:23
Firstly, thank you very much Jacqueline for having me on. I’m very used to doing the interviewing. Of course, I’m not used to being on the other side. So this, I don’t know if it’s going to be a treat for the listeners, but it’s a bit of a treat for me. So my name is Jamie Livingston. I’m the Founder and Chief Exec of the Livingston James group. We have two brands in the group. Livingston James that, as you rightly point out, does board and head of function executive search with clients across all sectors, principally focused on Scotland, but probably about a third of our work now is outside the UK, and we have another business, Rutherford cross, that focuses on senior finance appointments exclusively. So just recruits accountants. Business has been going for 15 years, and I have, as you point out, been doing it for longer than that. So yeah, there are, there are some miles on the clock, and it’s been fascinating to work with leaders over that period of time. And as you say, things have things have changed, and we hope we remain at the vanguard of what we’re doing.
Jacqueline Conway 03:36
Yeah, well, let’s just begin there, then with things have changed, and it would be great to hear your reflections on in what way have they changed? You know, reflecting on the 15 years at Livingston James group, but even before then, you know, what are the significant shifts that you’re seeing in the expectations of what leaders need to be in the C suite.
Jamie Livingston 04:03
Of course, it’s a really varied and new sort of nuanced answer I could give. But if I was to try to sort of simplify in the first instance, there’s definitely been in the early part of my career, I think command and control leadership probably would be a simple way of articulating what people were looking for. And, you know, a good leader, perhaps back then, was someone who could articulate, you know, a vision for the next five years, 10 years, whatever the period might be, get the right people around them, and then perhaps quite dogmatically, manage and lead to the delivery of that, of that, of that vision. And I think that over over time, and very, very much the case now, obviously, the pace of change and complexity has just got quicker and greater over that period. And. Um, any leader that says they know exactly what’s going to be happening in five years time now, well, maybe five minutes. When we look at the stock exchange, you know, it’s perhaps a little bit diluted, and so, you know, now we’re looking at much more purpose led leaders with a much more agile approach to how they do things. So quite stark, if I was to perhaps say at the beginning of my career, what you were looking for and how you’re assessing to where we are now. And what’s very interesting is if we look at a number of the people that would make the hiring decisions, if I think about chief exec appointments at the moment, those are people that maybe are the non execs, and perhaps spent a big chunk of their executive career, maybe a little bit more in how it was. So it’s really an interesting time at the moment.
Jacqueline Conway 05:50
Yeah, and you said an interesting word there about assessing, and you’re talking about agility and the capacity to take on complexity and to work effectively with that. I mean, how do you assess that? That seems very hard to be able to pin down, you know, when you see it, but can you, can you articulate what that is in advance?
Jamie Livingston 06:16
It’s a good question. I mean, I think that probably we would use competency based assessment, and you’d be looking for evidence of it having been done before. Quite hard to predict, if someone hasn’t had to do it before, whether they’ll be able to do it in the future, for sure. But normally, when we’re recruiting executives, there’ll be some form of previous experience that we’ll be able to sort of dig into to find out, you know, what did they do? How did they respond? And sort of get into that from a competency based assessment perspective, we do use Savile wave and some other tools if clients prefer that can do some predictive assessment. I tend to feel most comfortable with competency based examples, though, so it is hard to assess, but it is possible.
Jacqueline Conway 07:08
And I’m remembering when we hear competency, you know we there is something old worldly about that, though, isn’t there? There’s around because competencies, by their nature, seem quite fixed, and yet you and I have had some very rich conversations where, you know, we’ve talked about the capacities around complexity, around adult development, Around growth that seem they’re a bit more ephemeral than what you might try and then do in a formalised assessment process. And I absolutely hear what you’re saying around some of the people who are looking for those senior leaders may be in that world, but I know that you go beyond that, and I’m wondering then how Jamie Livingston balances the kind of capacity that you have to sort of lean into the nuance of what’s really required, and yet having to offer clients Something that seems, for lack of a better term, maybe a bit more scientific, in inverted commas, yeah,
Jamie Livingston 08:27
so I think it depends. I mean, obviously we will be working with clients in the way that they would like to work. If we are working with clients who embrace the paradox, then we can be talking, and it’s a far broader conversation, and there’s perhaps less right and wrong, and certainly less dualized answers In the conversation, and without wanting to sort of, perhaps confuse people that aren’t used to sort of operating in that in that way, as you, I think, said at the beginning. You know it when you’re talking to somebody that likes to operate that way, and it becomes quite evident through conversation. It’s also very evident, if people don’t, don’t like to operate that way. And I would, I know we talked a little bit about this before, I might say 20% of of people maybe operate at that, at that kind of in that way. I was going to say at that level, but I don’t think that’s the right way to think about it. But operate in that way, and it is more nuanced. It is about embracing paradox. And I think leaders that are good at doing that will be much more focused on purpose than they perhaps are on strategy. You still need. Strategy, but purpose will be perhaps their go to in their leadership style.
Jacqueline Conway 10:08
And so I guess reading between the lines of that, then there is, in itself a paradox in that the things that organisations need is this capacity to think beyond what’s now and to be able to see beyond what’s right in front of us, and to think about the second and third order consequences of decisions and so all of the sorts of things that you and I are alluding to here, and yet the organisation is perhaps doesn’t necessarily know that that might be what they’re looking for, or the hiring people might not know what they’re looking for, and yet that is an actual fact, what they are actually looking for. And so that, in itself, is a sort of a paradox. And I mean, I don’t know if you Yes, if that’s in mind with you when, when you’re doing this for and, of course, what we know is that organisations are on a different stage of their journey in the same way that human beings are. And so you’ll, I guess, meet the kind of full spectrum in your work,
Jamie Livingston 11:16
absolutely. And I think that the you know, we’ll be asking, you know, how will a client measure the impact of an appointment and over what time horizons? You start by getting into those sorts of questions and understanding of of how they are thinking about things, and by sort of trying to extend the recruitment process into the future, and working backwards from that, you’re hopefully able to pick up how clients are thinking about things. And that kind of creation of the future as leading from the emerging future, as it happens, is what people are going to need to do, having some sense of what people would hope the impact of that appointment would be over that time horizon allows the conversation probably to be tailored around the language and models that the client’s using at the Moment. And you know, I would say, preaching to the to the choir, of course here but but organisations that are investing in that ongoing, continuous development of their leadership team will be further ahead and how they operate and tapping into the models and ways of thinking to help make sure that the process that we then use to assess or to attract and assess the leaders is appropriate to the organisation, where it is and where it aspires to be in the future.
Jacqueline Conway 12:54
Okay, so let’s take a slightly different tack, because you mentioned there about the stock market, and you know, we find ourselves in spring 2025 in an extremely, I mean, understatement of the year, but, you know, an extremely turbulent and disruptive world. And I think that certainly the leaders that I’m working with are coming to the conclusion that it’s, it’s not going to go away. It’s not that we’re, you know, it’s like when this all comes down, sort of, there’s now a sort of acceptance that this is it for the time being, and we better get used to it. And I’m then thinking about how people are responding to that. I mean, how, how are you responding to it? How’s Livingston James group responding to it and and how are your clients responding to it? What are you finding in because I think the nervousness, the overwhelm, the the anxiety that I’m seeing and feeling and hearing and the leaders that I’m working with is palpable,
Jamie Livingston 14:04
absolutely. So I would concur with what you’re what you’re seeing. We’re seeing that as well. I do think that the experience of the pandemic has helped people understand that despite huge uncertainty and change, life goes on, and it’s looking for the things that are perhaps timeless and within our control, rather than trying to control things that we can’t. So you asked, how do we go about it? You know, we were really fortunate in our timing, in that through the back end of 2019, you know, we went through a really considered and inclusive process to define our purpose as an organisation, and our purpose is to help people and organise. Organisations realise their potential, so that together, we can impact lives and communities for the better. And we had everybody in the organisation involved. The process was really it was a wonderful process to go through. We asked everybody to come, various groups. Won’t bore you with the whole process, but we asked people to come armed with examples of when they felt most inspired and excited to do what we do, and then what we did over a process was to get an overarching purpose statement that was completely inclusive of everybody’s most inspired moments in the organisation, and that then set our our true north and of course, it doesn’t, it doesn’t mention the word recruitment, perhaps intentionally, although the process did what it did organically, if you like. So we have that as you as our North Star, and then we have our values, which define how we behave as an organisation. And so when we think about decision making, we’ve kind of got a pyramid that’s got our purpose at the top, our values as how we go about doing things. That’s why we’re doing and it sets overall direction, and then below those. So we’ve kind of got control of those. We can be doing that stuff and operating that way regardless of what’s going on around us. We then will have some long term goals that, I suppose, set an overarching strategy. But then you’ve got below that market conditions, you know, whether that’s a volatile stock market or a global pandemic, you know, these are things we don’t, we don’t have control over. And then sort of below those, you’ve kind of got your short term strategic goal setting, and those things have to move really, very quickly, but, what I try to do is to make sure the team feel really safe and really clear on purpose and values, so I can set some direction as a leader through those. And then we need to be really nimble and really, really client centric in terms of how we operate below those. And if I was to contrast that perhaps to how, how we operated as an organisation, or some of those, or how perhaps we would have been assessing leaders in the past, is you’d have been wanting more clarity on the strategic direction and perhaps less focus on the purpose. Whereas when the pace of changes as it is, you just can’t do that, or I certainly find I can’t do that as a leader, but you have to set some direction. So what we do is we hold firmly to purpose and values and hold lighter to strategy, and try to be really client centric in terms of how we’re responding. So that’s how we operate and continue to operate. It doesn’t mean it feels wonderful all of the time, but it does allow opportunity to you know well, is this helping people realise their potential? Are we impacting lives and communities for the better. If the answer is yes, good answer is no, stop doing it and do something that that is and in terms of our sort of behaviours and how we operate together and with the wonderful stakeholders that we operate with, Well, are we, you know, are we holding ourselves accountable to operate the way that we want to? So we have some things that we hold firm to. And I mean, it’s funny even in a day, you know, I know this podcast will go out, and this may be ancient history to some people that are listening, but you know, you have the FTSE dropping by 10% and then bouncing back six as a consequence of changes in policy on the other side of the Atlantic, you know. So people that you know yesterday were maybe thinking, gosh, maybe we don’t want to hire. If I think, bring it back to my business, maybe today are going, oh, we need, we need to hire. And you can’t make decisions like that in 24 hours, right? It’s just not, not appropriate.
Jacqueline Conway 18:58
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s extremely difficult, isn’t it? But I mean, I loved what you said there around, you know, purpose and being led by purpose. And of course, you also, you also made some changes around your organisational structure and around your ownership. Do you want to say something about
Jamie Livingston 19:16
that? Absolutely, and that has been wonderful as well, actually. So, so yeah, we became Scotland’s first employee owned recruitment business just over two years ago, or coming up two and a half years ago, actually, now. So the business is owned for and on behalf the benefit of all employees. So everybody’s got a sense of skin in the game. You know, if we’re doing really well, there’s a profit distribution model that’s great. And as the team are aware, if we’re not doing quite so well, there isn’t. So there’s a kind of real buy, and I hope was kind of there before. But this is really. Kind of formalise that in the ownership model that we have, and as we’ve always aimed to be, you know, everybody’s maybe just that, that little 1% even more client centric and how we do things so, again, helpful and innovation actually coming from right across the organisation as it should be. I mean, you don’t, you don’t need to be employee owned for that to be best practice, but it certainly helped. You know, new ideas coming from everywhere in the organisation, and when you need to be particularly agile, that’s really important the people that are closest to the customer or the client are going to be the people that will have the best ideas for how to innovate, and we’ve seen that be even more to the fore since becoming employee owned.
Jacqueline Conway 20:56
Yeah, and did you do it for that reason, or was there some other rationale? Why did you switch to employee owned model?
Jamie Livingston 21:05
So I think that there were a few reasons. The sort of practice that we’ve had over the last maybe five or six years has been to think if we were setting up again, are there things that we would do really differently, and try to make sure that we don’t cling on to what was best practice back whenever we don’t want to be dinosaurs. So are the things. And I think as a business model, I mean employee ownership has been around for quite a long time, but it wasn’t really in my consciousness as a model particularly, but thinking about, well, if you are an organisation where the value of the organisation literally walks in and out of the door every day, what would be the best ownership model for an organisation like that? And through that lens, it became apparent, well, actually, everybody having as much ownership as is appropriate, hopefully, means everybody’s feeling really vested in what we’re doing. So so there was a business model piece. There was also, from a personal perspective, you know, an opportunity to realise some of the value in the business that you know, have been built over over 15 years, and it allowed some quite innovative opportunities to bring some senior people in with a slightly different equity model. So there was a few things all came together. And, you know, there was a period where I was going right, please. Someone tell me why this is wrong, because it just seemed to make sense on every level to every person that was directly affected. And two and a half years in, I’m happy to report that remains the case.
Jacqueline Conway 22:52
The word that comes to mind as I hear you talk about all of that is coherence that you know, if you start with a purpose, then in order for it to really be coherently in the organisation, design, the leadership structure, the way that you are in the world with your clients, the way that profits are distributed, all of these things, when they’re coherent, then the whole thing just works much, much better, because we’ve all been in organisations which say their purpose laid, which see their values lead, the values are kind of etched on the glass doors in the meeting rooms, and yet it goes about its business with really scant regard to that. And so there’s more often than not, I think I see a lack of coherence, rather than a deep coherence that you’re talking about there.
Jamie Livingston 23:45
Do you see that? Yeah, I do. I think that. I mean, it’s quite interesting some of our early conversations with when I started to talk about purpose, and wanting to define really clearly what the purpose of living St James group was. Some of the really good early questions I got, particularly from from our board, were probably going, Okay, that sounds good. Is that a marketing thing, or is that or maybe that’s an HR thing? And I could understand where the questions came from. And I think sometimes that’s how organisations will come at a purpose exercise. But purpose needs to transcend and be beyond all of those things, and then those things flow from it. So I think organisations that have perhaps well intentioned particularly perhaps they come at it from an HR perspective, going well, let’s approach this from a really people centric perspective, so that the heart is great on that however, it needs to include the people, but it also needs to include the market and so strategy and everything else should flow from it. So I think that there are organisations and. Yeah, what? There are organisations that are fantastic at it, of course, and there are organisations who, I think, know it’s important, but might have approached it through a functional lens when it needs to sit above all of all of those things. So, so I would agree, you know, perhaps you have a perhaps approached it from a marketing level. It might be all over your literature and the stuff that you put out there, but is it represented in how people behave and how strategy is formed, or maybe not, or it flows from a purely employee perspective and maybe becomes less relevant to the clients or customers that you serve? So we definitely see those things out there. But more and more, I think that the organisations that are authentically purpose LED will start to lead in the market. Because if it’s just, you know, if it’s coming, if we use, if a market becomes very tough, and you’ve looking at it purely from an employee perspective, you could get yourself into trouble, perhaps by not making difficult decisions around people quickly enough. And and I think that so I think over time, the more overtly purpose led organisations are going to be rising to the top, because I think it’s the most responsive way of leading, and it allows for iterative change, quickly over time, maybe massive leaps if required. But so I think your point is, right, there are lots of organisations that say they are, and I would like to think they’re on a journey, at least they’re talking about it, and and, and over time, I think people will start to get to grips with, you know, in an ever more volatile and choppy marketplace, how do you lead? How do you set direction? How can you have a, if you like, a firm hand on the tiller, which people want, particularly when it is a volatile time, without setting a strategy that’s frankly a gamble, and pretending that you know what’s going on when none of us really do. So I think that, you know, I’m optimistic that organisations that are thinking about it and talking about it, even if, at the moment, it’s a little bit lopsided that they’ll get there, and I would encourage organisations that aren’t thinking that way, that it might be something very worthwhile exploring. Yeah,
Jacqueline Conway 27:51
there’s so much in there, Jamie, that I want to kind of explore with you, because, of course, so much of what you’re talking about is about the decisions that are made by very senior people. And it seems to me that it’s one thing to talk about an organization’s purpose or its values, and it’s another thing when the rubber hits the road and things become difficult to really stand behind or up to your convictions. And the term that I increasingly think is valid here and is vital for senior leaders is moral courage. It’s a thing that I increasingly find my radar is up for, you know, I’m looking for, or I’m attuned to when I see it and when I don’t see it. And of course, well, I guess I’ll pause there and just see. What do you make of that? So I know that you because I’m thinking, I mean, there’s so much going on in my head right now, so when I think about it from a Livingston James perspective, I know that you are a person of extremely strong values, and therefore the courage of your convictions to see these things through, I would imagine, and I’m presuming here, but I’m imagining that that’s in large part because you have moral courage and and in some Ways it’s easier for a business, a smaller business like that, where the founder is the CEO, albeit that it’s employee owned to make those kinds of decisions. But you know, an example is the DEI shifts that happened. So what we had was we had well meaning CEOs and C suite leaders get behind dei for a long time and make progress and see that there was business benefits to Dei. And then in the last sort of 10 weeks, what. We’ve seen. So 10 weeks from now, we’re sitting here on the 10th of April, recording this in the 10th of April, but many people rolled back on that. Now I do have some sympathy for that, because it becomes extremely difficult when you know there’s dictates from on high being given about these sorts of things, and yet it seems that some people did display moral courage, and that’s what I mean about the rubber hitting the road, that it’s one thing to see these things are really important, but it really is when it gets difficult and you have to make personal sacrifices, the extent to which you’re prepared to do those things.
Jamie Livingston 30:42
Yeah, yeah. You’re so right. You’re so right. And it’s and of course, it’s not a dualized thing either. People would love to make it that way. So, you know, leaders, perhaps, I mean, certainly, we haven’t seen any shifts in the 10 weeks with our client base moving, which is positive. They also haven’t perhaps been under the spotlight the way that some of the US organisations have been. So it’s at the moment, at least perhaps easier in the UK, and if a leader was to be display what we might all recognise as extreme moral courage, and perhaps call out the president and what was happening and then lose their job. Well, great moral courage. But what impact can they have on what’s going on? So it’s not quite as straightforward as, let’s all fall on our sword and then have leaders stepping up in those organisations that are going to dismiss the DE and I agenda. So it’s an interesting conundrum in terms of, well, how do I how do I best lead in the circumstance, and perhaps it is for some people the right thing to stand up knowing that they’re then going to get moved on. But for others, it might be to more subtly, go about making sure that agenda remains in place without shouting about it loudly. We probably need both. And we need leaders to make what will be nuanced decisions for them and their organisations in the right way at the right time,
Jacqueline Conway 32:30
and I guess then on that moral courage point. And going back to the point about purpose, one of the things I’ve been thinking quite a lot about recently is, you know, the kind of meta crisis that we’re in, you know, sort of climate change and deglobalization and the disruption that we’re facing and and big tech and AI and, you know, just everything that’s in there, synthetic Biology, whatever, these things kind of crashing together. The challenge that we’ve got is that business has been a force both for good in the world and also not. And I’m wondering about the extent to which within the client base that you have that this idea of being a force for good is important. Sometimes I feel like I am perhaps being a bit naive when I talk about moving beyond the the idea that you know we’re here to make you know the sole purpose of a business is to make a profit, and that and that there’s, there’s more to it than that, because I guess I hear a lot of that, and yet, when there’s decision, hard decisions to be made, profit does still win over most of the time. And I’m not saying that judgmentally, I’m just, I’m really grappling with, how do we navigate our way through that when we do have to make a profit, all of us have to make a profit. And yet, I mean, I, one of the questions I find myself keep asking myself, was, what for these, for some of these tech billionaires and things like, how much is enough? You When? When does enough feel like enough? And then I think maybe I’m just hopelessly naive, but surely there is a point at which Enough is enough.
Jamie Livingston 34:32
Well, yes, I think Bill and Melinda Gates would be quite interesting. I think their mission now is to give it all away, isn’t it, so they maybe have hit the number whatever, whatever that that number was, and realised I’ve got me. So I think that the the I suppose, if I suppose, how much is enough, is going to be a question only answered by. By an individual. What I would say is that interviewing, you know, lots of very, very talented and financially successful people over the years, very often, if they’ve been in a career that has simply been or in an organisation that’s simply been about making as much money as possible. Towards the end of that career, they do start to think about, well, wait a minute, you know, what’s it all been about? And, and, and, and that bit kicks in. What’s really interesting, I think, is how customers and employees are starting to perhaps hold organisations more accountable around if we use, you know, perhaps fair trade as an example. You know, people were buying Fair Trade products, you know, and and demanding. I mean, I was talking to a client who was asking us to do a little bit of benchmarking work around packages that they offered and and what was really interesting was, you know, get getting into the sort of potential employee base they were in amongst package, and their decision to join or to leave for this particular organisation that involved a lot of packaging, Were the environmental credentials of the organisation were, you know, were something that employees and I suspect customers were going to be really, really interested in. So I think it is the responsibility of leaders. But again, the market needs to be at pace, and the markets probably shaping some of that, you know, in terms of force for good, but, but when people get scared, like when we saw this on the pandemic, the panic buying and all that, kind of people get scared, they you know, survival perhaps kicks in. And that moral compass, you know, isn’t always as finely tuned as perhaps it it should be, but once people then feel safe again. You know, it comes back.
Jacqueline Conway 37:06
And that’s actually what I see when I I also see very senior leaders who get to a point in their career where they have enough financial security, they’ve done it long enough, and they then start to ask the why, question What’s all for and what might be next. And whereas that’s great, I also then think, Gosh, it would have been, would have been really good if you had perhaps thought about that a little bit earlier in your journey. And perhaps, you know, maybe they’re just not going to because in the Maslow’s hierarchy of needs there almost as a threshold beyond which you need to get, to give yourself the comfort, to allow yourself to be able to have those sorts of thoughts. You know, if you’re still paying off a mortgage and worrying about kind of getting your children through school and university and all of that kind of stuff, then perhaps that just is harder to think about and and ultimately, I think is one of the biggest barriers that we have, is that, you know, when, when people don’t confront the challenges that We would perhaps want our leaders to confront. It’s easy to be extremely judgmental, and at the same time you think, Well, you know, what are they grappling with as well? So I’m kind of holding it both ways, where I’ve got, I’ve got some compassion for that, and then other times I just think, Oh, if only they were perhaps their threshold was a little lower. I guess
Jamie Livingston 38:42
it’s the last book that Jonathan Sacks wrote before he died. Was called morality. And obviously he was there, right? So, you know, you and of course, in that he was writing from a, from a from a Jewish perspective, but he said, in the absence of ancient wisdom traditions, I guess you could insert your own society looks for moral guidance, either from the state or from the market, neither of which is set up to provide moral guidance. Both really need to be held accountable by those with, you know, strong morality. And I think that so when you then look at, well, either doesn’t matter state or market or just remain neutral on those things, if individuals are looking for moral guidance from those things, they can be very easily manipulated by people in power on either side of those. And, you know, certainly from a personal perspective, you know, I, you know, have a strong Christian faith, but didn’t until I was probably in my early 30s. And so I’ve got somewhere for me where I go when I’m thinking. I’m really stuck here with a moral conundrum. I’ve, you know, I’ve got tenants and things. I go, okay, that’s, that’s how I believe I should operate here. And I take great comfort in that. I do feel that people that don’t have a sort of way of being like that that is appropriate for for them, you know, trying to make what you think are moral decisions. I mean, I don’t, you know. How do you do that? You know? So, yeah, that’s a good way of putting it. Where’s the scaffolding for, for, for moral courage? So it’s but as you see, you see it in people. There’s a radar, and you can recognise it and and you know, certainly from from how I see things, we need leaders of moral courage that are prepared to make the tough decisions, because markets rise and markets fall, and, you know, governments rise and governments fall. That’s kind of just the nature of being, but there are things that need to remain constant through that. So, yeah, I agree with the point you were making, and also agree with it in a non judgmental way, because everybody’s on their journey. I think there’s a book called Falling upwards by Richard Rohr, and it talks about second half of life. Now, someone might get to the second half of their life in their 20s, or they might never get there, you know, but that’s about, you know, there’s probably the first half is maybe quite egocentric and driven, and it’s really important, and it’s not wrong, it’s, it’s as right as everything else is. And then that second half is going, Well, wait a minute, it’s really not all about me at all, in fact, and maybe that, maybe some people are just naturally predisposed to get there quicker, or others, it maybe requires life circumstances, Good and Bad, to then help people get perspective and realise, well, really, maybe this isn’t all about me, and it’s about what I can be doing for for other people,
Jacqueline Conway 42:30
society, society has a role to play, don’t you think so? Just in in helping our younger people develop, whether it’s from a Christian faith, or another faith, or no faith, in thinking about how they want to be and who they want to be in the world and other societies, pay a great deal of attention to the way in which they socialise Young people in the world, to the things that that they ought to be thinking about, and and they are actively developing the capacities of young people from a very, a very young age. And I’m thinking about Bildung and Germany and those sorts of move, those sorts of philosophical movements which were about really kind of developing people. And I’m saying that because those underpinning philosophies are also the underpinning philosophies of another organisation that you’re extremely close to, which is Columba 1400 and the way in which we might then try and instil in our younger people a way to think about the world which doesn’t wait till they get to a point where they’ve got enough, but really stuck. And I guess that’s tuning into something that I mean my my children are not children. They’re 24 and 21 you know, the values that they have are extremely strong and their peer group is extremely strong. They hold beliefs that are part of their generation. I mean, do you want to say a little bit about kilometre 1400 and what that’s trying to do for young
Jamie Livingston 44:12
people? Absolutely, I think you know so Camba 1400 really exists to help young people in the key adults in their lives, particularly from tough realities, realise that they’re really valuable, and to help them discover a level of purpose as they understand it. And to you know in time, hopefully we move from a life of perhaps focused on consumption to contribution and and the way that it does, it really is through an experience, and it’s quite hard in this age of data. There is, there is plenty of data, but, but you’re not working with these young people with a prescribed out. Come in mind so that they can then be part of the data set. You’re really wanting them at first, to just feel very valuable. So when they arrive, we have a Leadership Centre on Sky. They do some pre work in school. And then they come up, and there’s a residential experience, and the tutors come and carry the bags, the children’s bags, and take them, and they’re made to feel incredibly welcome first. And it’s about making them feel welcome, letting them know that they’re important. And these are things very often that these young people have not experienced often, if maybe ever, and then once they know, okay, I’m, I’m, you know, I’m appropriately important here, and what I think about my values and things are important to me. Those are important to the people here. And then from that position, you see behaviour change and a natural reflex, almost towards wanting to contribute. We actually have an event this evening that’s going to be fantastic, particularly because we’ve got two of the young people coming to talk, and we will hear from our fantastic chief exec, Marie Claire and our founder. I know the people that are going to steal the show are going to be the young people, because they can talk about the experience they’ve been in the transformation that they’ve gone through, and it is about helping them know who they are, recognise that they are an important you know, and not words that we’re allowed to use, but are loved unconditionally. And then the shift in behaviour comes after that, and it’s the experience that Columba provides, and then who knows what that person is going to go on to do. I think we have some funders and some organisations would like us to be very formulaic around so they come, they do a sheep dip thing, and then they go and do x as well. Who are we to decide what they’re going to do with their lives? But hopefully what we can do is provide an experience and then follow up that encourages them to feel empowered, to do whatever it is they feel they’re here on this, this planet, to do
Jacqueline Conway 47:12
lovely Yeah, I love all of that and and also I love your use of the word love. And of course, it’s a word that in organisations, we tend not to use at all. We there’s a sort of slight allergic reaction to it, isn’t it? And I guess More’s the pity.
Jamie Livingston 47:31
I think it is. I mean, we in English language, we only, you know, we have it’s a catch all for lots of things, but you know, it encompasses the sort of passage from the letter to the one of the letters to the Corinthians that’s often quoted in marriage ceremonies. People obviously think about the greatest of these is love. And people, of course, in that context, are thinking romantic love. But in fact, the original Greek that the translate well, the King James Version was charity, which we can understand, but it’s a kind of unconditional self sacrificing love would be a fuller translation of what that that the original Greek word agape, you know, meant. And I think when we understand it in that way, unconditional self sacrificing love. Hopefully people can understand why it’s entirely appropriate to be thinking that way about people that we’re working with, and in fact, a very good bedrock for marriage, of course, as well, but perhaps not always understood that way, because we we bring the perhaps the Hollywood notion of romantic love is always, perhaps very prevalent when people think about the word
Jacqueline Conway 48:47
Yeah, but just imagine we had more of that in in that self sacrifice and leadership. How awesome would that be?
Jamie Livingston 48:54
Absolutely, well, it would be fantastic.
Jacqueline Conway 48:59
Well, I think we can both agree on that and probably end there, because I’m conscious of your time. Jamie, thank you so much. Indeed. I’ve loved this conversation. It’s been great to catch up with you, and I look forward to seeing you again soon.
Jamie Livingston 49:15
Absolutely likewise. Thanks. Jacqueline, you
Jacqueline Conway 49:23
if you found this podcast useful, then I think you’ll find value in my newsletter the perilous peak. It’s a digest for executives leading in a disrupted world. When you subscribe, you’ll discover why it’s a must read for so many leaders who already receive it, and it’s there that you’ll gain access to some of our latest thinking resources and tools that we are continually creating for you. Head over to waldencroft.com/newsletter to sign up. When you do, you’ll receive a complimentary copy of my CEO research report and how to respond to the challenges. Executives are now facing you.
The organisational peak is a perilous environment. It is more complex and challenging than anything that has gone before. And consequently, both executive tenure and corporate longevity are decreasing. To survive and thrive at the perilous peak, executive leaders need to balance their functional leadership, a focus on execution with enterprise leadership, that is ensuring the organisation adapts in our new world. That is what we will be exploring in the Advanced Executive Leadership podcast. Welcome. I’m your host Jacqueline Conway. I’m the Founder and Managing Director of Walden Croft, a consulting practice dedicated to helping Executives and Executive teams anticipate, navigate and lead at the perilous peak.
In this episode I am in conversation with Gordon Dewar, the Chief Executive at Edinburgh Airport. Gordon had presided over many years of exponential growth. At Edinburgh airport before COVID and lockdowns saw passenger numbers reduced to a mere half of 1% of what they had previously been. Of course, that disruption has continued and, we have seen that travel and tourism have been the worst affected sectors from the pandemic. Gordon, whom I have worked with for several years, talks about what that kind of disruption has been like for him and for everyone at the airport. I hope you enjoy the episode.
Tell me your story Gordon, how did you come to be the Chief Executive of Edinburgh Airport?
Gordon Dewar (1:53)
I summarise it as quite a linear progression of skill development and the focus of what I do through a varied set of organisations and industries. What I mean by that is, it has always been transport based and it has always been commercially driven. From the early days of consultancy, after I graduated it was always about how to advise operators how to invest, how to design profitable and commercial projects and so on. And always using that sort of commercial transport, we are trying to be quite innovative. So, one of the early adopters of simulation, modelling, and transport for example. Again, this theme of data driven, how do we do better analysis? How do we understand the market better? How do we invest better? that has been fundamental. And then the variability, I have been bounced around between consultancy, trains, buses, and ultimately airports since 2007. But for me, that felt like a natural progression that was always about getting into jobs that I find fascinating and getting into jobs that very few people seem to do or think about, or certainly think about in the way that is obvious, and therefore, kept on getting options to do something similar in a slightly different spectrum. Thankfully, that ended up being in the airports which has been by far the most enjoyable because it’s just such an exciting agenda and dealing with international travel and all that means, not just for the industry and for the company and for me personally, but what it means to Scotland in this case, and what it’s meant for however we delivered. Weather it’s in this country or in Bahrain when I had my couple of years as well. So, jumping about geographical and in different sectors within transport, but always that principle of data driven commercial focus on how we’re going to make more money and how we’re going to invest it better.
Jacqueline Conway (3:47)
So obviously, you know, the data side of it is fascinating isn’t it, because you make your forecasts, and you work to those forecasts. I’ve been around and about your business as you’ve been doing that very, very successfully. I remember conversations we had in December 2019, about what the forecast for 2020 might be, then of course, 2020 arrives and up ends the entire world doesn’t it. We saw the impact on Edinburgh Airport and the impact on airports more generally, has been devastating. Do you want to say a little bit about what that was like and where you’re at now?
Gordon Dewar (4:27)
It was really, it was scary, to be honest. It was horrendous because you know the hardest decision I’ve ever made in my career was the one where we lost a third of our colleagues through redundancy because it was a matter of survival. We were a business that to be honest thought we were a fixed cost business, no revenue, suddenly things were pretty scary. Prospects were not highly leveraged, but we have carried a lot of debt as many infrastructure companies did. Therefore, the priority was to make sure it was survivable in terms of not running out of cash and not getting into significantly more difficulties. All of that in an entirely unpredictable world. Even at the start of that when we were at the lowest point of total crisis lockdown in March 2020 I think even then we thought a disaster would be three months of that. And here we are 18 months later. I think while that uncertainty was deeply uncomfortable, while it was horrible to lose colleagues, to see some of the work we have done undone, and with no doubt another number of years before we get back to where we were in 2019, all of which is frustrating, annoying, and particularly when I think some of it’s unnecessary, it’s a bit depressing. But what we have always done is just deploy what we’re good at, and what I mean by that when I talked about forecasting, we have used this time to get into ever more detail about where can we strip costs in the short term? where can we model recoveries? Where can we find additional revenue or better yields? or find ways of encouraging airlines to come back quicker to Edinburgh rather than somewhere else, if it’s about a market share, play. I think what we have done again, is deploy what we’re good at, which is data driven analysis of our business and the opportunities, and then communicate that internally and externally to give ourselves the best chance. I think the one thing I am absolutely confident about is by the time we’re back to our 2019 levels of passenger demand, which is a bit just short of 15 million, we will be in a far stronger position relatively speaking than we were in 2019. What I mean by that is, as a market share in Scotland and the market share beyond Scotland actually, and in terms of the mix of airlines we have and the view they have in our marketplace. We will have done so many other things within the business to get more productivity, expand our revenue opportunities and just have used that time to really fundamentally rebase the business. And therefore, I think in a funny sort of way, if you’ve got the patience, which I haven’t, if you’ve got the patience to wait until 2024 or 25, this may look like one of the best outcomes we’ve seen for the airport in terms of an external view of what is the strength of Edinburgh airport in our market.
Jacqueline Conway (7:06)
But let me ask the question that might be on a lot of listeners minds, because of course, you’re just along the road. I know that Biden flew into here as many of the world leaders did, and then scuttled the long road to COP26, just a few weeks ago. Climate is on the agenda, sustainability is on the agenda, has the impact of lockdown and COVID changed your thinking on that? And do you think it’s changed people’s thinking more generally, potential passengers thinking?
Gordon Dewar (7:39)
I’m not sure I think it was coming anyway. I think COP26 brought a real focus in Scotland obviously. And I think therefore, that has changed the short-term dynamic, and the attention and the detail and some of the challenging questions. But I think the industry has been working on this for a number of years now in the full knowledge that for many on the environmental side, we are seen as the fifth horsemen of the apocalypse in terms of they cannot see the solution, and therefore their answer is stop doing it. We as an industry are confident that we can see the solution to net zero and actually ahead of UK government targets. Sustainable aviation and umbrella organisations for airlines, airports, engine manufacturers, aircraft manufacturers and fuel providers are all bullish about what we can do, how we can take certainly very early gains on the carbon intensity of a passenger trip. But actually, a longer-term view is how you get to zero using things like hydrogen and electricity, but also sustainable aviation fuels. While jet engines are a trickier technology than many other parts of society to see a rapid path away from it, if there is a sensible debate about the value that transport and aviation provides in terms of broader value, and we can just have a more time conscious view of how do we get to net zero, and maybe not the first or the second, but that we all understand where we are, I think we can make a really big contribution to some of the other solutions as well. A great example of that is Scotland’s biggest employer is tourism, we’ve got a pretty aggressive anti aviation debate going on around some, I think fairly ill-informed without anybody suggesting well, what does that mean if we can’t get here? Because there are no other options but aviation to get to the north tip of a north west, European Island. So you know, I think I’m a bit frustrated by the single issue and knee jerk stuff because if people actually look at the data, look at the proposals, look at the way the industry has responded already, I think that there’ll be a lot more than converged about the opportunities in front of us and instead of saying stop it, we should be saying, well, how do we demonstrate the best behaviours that others might want to follow?
Jacqueline Conway (9:55)
Let’s go back to the data point because you’re talking about being data driven, I’ve observed that kind of up close here at Edinburgh Airport, and data is a wonderful thing and making data driven decisions for periods of continuity. But for periods of extreme discontinuity, it’s less helpful. How has that been for you? Because we’ve probably experienced the greatest period of discontinuity in all our lives. So what impact has that had on data being a key driver of decision makings?
Gordon Dewar (10:33)
I think that’s a really interesting view. I mean certainly what we’ve got is no confidence in any forecast. And that’s an uncomfortable place where we’re really good at that, you know we used to be within two or three percentage points, just about everything in the business. Because we have that continuity, we understood that history. What we’ve pivoted to now is deepening our understanding of relationships and outcomes. What I mean by that is, a really practical example is in the past, we had pretty good understanding about the different implications of an inbound and an outbound passenger, as an example, so somebody flying in from abroad and spending time in Scotland versus a Scot going off somewhere. And it didn’t really matter that much because you had continuity, where there was a sort of a growing trend toward more inbound as a whole, but it was quite slow moving and therefore wouldn’t make a profound impact on your forecast if you got it slightly wrong, or worse, slightly misunderstanding what’s going on. But now what we’re seeing is this massive discontinuity that we’ve decimated inbound demand, because the UK for all sorts of reasons is a very unattractive place to come at the moment. We’ve therefore got a massive focus on outbound then. Why does that matter? Well, people don’t bring their cars with inbound passengers, don’t pay for car parking, outbound passengers don’t buy car rental, and so on and so forth. For example, Scots don’t buy tartan scarves as gifts, we’ve got to get into that understanding. And we’ve been forced to really understand that in much more detail. Now, there is no more data in the marketplace than we have ever had. But this is the biggest experiment you’ve ever seen, because we’ve got data points that we’ve never had before, because we’ve never seen behaviours and outcomes like this. There is one example of what we’re doing is deepening our understanding of the subtleties of the data. Not because we’re producing a forecast we are any more confident about but we’ll know what to do when we do know what the answer is and therefore, we’re going to be far better harvesting, benefit planning for the shifts when they come, responding quicker because we’ll know what we’re looking for. And we know what to turn on and off that at the right time. So, you know, we will come out of this with another layer of understanding about how our business operates and where the opportunities and risks lie.
Jacqueline Conway (12:46)
As we sit here, we’re 18 months into COVID, maybe even more, and you know, it’s winter 2021 /2022. What’s on the horizon then for Edinburgh airport?
Gordon Dewar (13:02)
I think we’ve seen these different waves come and go, I think there’s a couple of things that we are very confident about. We’re really confident that the underlying demand for aviation is going to bounce as soon as people are allowed to travel. We know that different market segments will respond differently, business travel will be different from leisure travel, we know that inbound will be different to outbound for various reasons. But what we know is inherently people still see the value in travelling and come back. So, this is a case of when not if we’re going to get back into that growth trajectory and as I say, I think will actually strengthen our relative market position. We’ll recover faster than most, we’ll end up better and stronger than we started from, and so on. I’ve got no concerns whatsoever about the longer-term strength of the business, our ability to be successful and our ability to move forward. I’ve got utter uncertainty about when do we get back to 15 million passengers, when do we comfortably predicted we’re not going to see yet another lockdown or travel restrictions coming in. And there’s no point in worrying about that, in a sense, you know the one thing we have certainly learnt is government doesn’t pay any attention. So, we’ve stopped beating our heads against a wall. We just started trying to give government options and some requests that I hope will respond to their interesting decisions about how they go forward, so none of it is a long-term worry. We’ve also seen even with a relatively modest level of recovery, because we were so good at cost reduction, we’ve been back in profitability, cashflow positivity for the last four months despite being still down at sort of less than half of the traditional demand that we’re used to. Now that in itself is a massive success, nobody thought that we could get that level of cost reduction. And actually, when we benchmark against every other airport we can see data for, we’re miles ahead as well.
Jacqueline Conway (14:50)
Why is that?
Gordon Dewar (14:53)
I think part of it is we just aggressively went after it from day one, because we’re prepared to do so we’ve got the tools, we’ve got the individuals with that mindset, we’ve got a whole concept that everything is done on a bottom up basis. You don’t say “oh, it’s all too difficult” or “that’s a fixed cost base, we’ll never look at that”. We went round every single budget item and said, what’s needed? what’s necessary? what can we do to reduce it? If we reduce it now, can we keep it out? We’ve done some really, really creative things, and what’s interesting is, we hope to keep at least 25% of the savings permanently as well. So, these are not all emergency crash, beat up the supply chain or do one off things, some of this stuff is actually going to profoundly change the productivity of the business. I think, again it comes from the combination the attitude of, “we have been massively successful” attitude of confidence in the long term and therefore deploy what you know, deploy the skills you have and harvest what you can in the short term and be ready for the recovery.
Jacqueline Conway (15:53)
So, let me ask about that “harvest what we can in the short term”, because before the crash, there was always an energy around Edinburgh Airport. There was always a sense, with everyone from you right down to baggage handlers and people in security. And I experienced that as someone who was consulting here but also as a regular passenger, there was an energy and a vibrancy that it’s a hugely action orientated organisation. Then the action was kind of ripped out from under you. So, psychologically, what’s that been like for you and for your people to go from, a momentum where you’re going at a really fast pace, making decisions, implementing things quickly and well to being in a very radically different situation?
Gordon Dewar (16:42)
I don’t think anything has changed around fast pace rapid implementation, it’s been a lot less fun and it’s been a lot less certain as we’ve talked about, but fundamentally the sort of culture of nothing’s impossible, let’s look again, let’s go back to first principles, let’s challenge ourselves as much as possible, is motivated by something entirely different now. In this case, survival and then into recovery it’s a lot less fun, because you’re not celebrating root starts, you’re not celebrating the off the scale growth, and record after record. But nothing’s really changed in terms of the approach you bring to that, because I think it’s founded on good business principles in the first place, which as we know is what makes our business successful. It’s not a difficult prospect in terms of understanding the model of growing volume, attracting new airlines, giving passengers choice, getting more of them, and giving them things to spend the money on when they get here, none of that’s changed. But you’ve just got to apply yourself to the new scenarios, the new challenges the new essential, where do you spend your time today? And I think we’re really good at that, we’re just very action oriented, saying “well what’s the next challenge in front of us?”
Jacqueline Conway (17:57)
And let’s talk about the team because obviously, my key focus with you here is at the executive level. How are your executives stepping up to these challenges that you’re describing?
Gordon Dewar (18:11)
Well, the first thing I’d say is its quite new exec, there’s been a lot of change. I mean one of the things we decided when we knew we had to have massive cost reduction is we had to lead from the top. We’ve had people taking early voluntary retirement, we’ve had people sort of stepping away into other opportunities and we’ve deliberately thinned down the exec. All of the people that have stepped up into that new role are from within, which again is great sign of the evidence of what we’re invested in, how we develop people, that bench strength that we’ve developed over the years that we’ve now used. I’ve got less exec and there’s a lot fresher faces if you like, and some of the longer serving people have taken a step back. Nobody kind of went the way that we went, well, that’s not true, we had to look at particular functions, things like our projects. Clearly when you go from a 60 million capital spend to five then you know you’ve got to change into that. There were certain roles that we had to, unfortunately loose through redundancy but everyone that’s now in exec has either stepped up to a bigger or broader role or has just stepped up into what was their previous boss’s position. But again, that has been evidence of that investment in the culture, the training the capability. So, what does that mean now? Well it means we’ve got a really enthusiastic bunch of people who are totally committed to the business. I think this is the first time I can remember where there’s zero friction within the exec, sometimes a bit of constructive tension is good as we know, but this isn’t the time for it, this is about everyone pulling in the right direction. A great example is we’ve lost our chief operating officer in a good way down to Gatwick, they took on a role to try and replicate what we were doing up here down in Gatwick where they weren’t being quite as successful at the time. The two individuals who have stepped up in his absence, instead of potentially competing have actually forged a really effective link of well, how do we cover each other’s back, help each other out and that was a big step forward in their career paths. I think it’s been an absolute exemplar of it, whether we’ve come at that where again, database, what do we need to work on together? Let’s not get too hung up on job titles and you know, which particular segment we’re in we just all need to sort of put a shoulder to the wheel. It’s been really impressive. I think about the flexibility people have brought, that’s massively impressive about the workload that people have shouldered and really rewarding to see just how well our teams come together.
Jacqueline Conway (20:49)
You’ll have heard me talk before about when you get to the executive level, like an infinity loop, you’re trying to hold in balance, executive leaders tend to hold and balance their functional responsibilities. So, if they’re a chief financial officer, they have financial responsibilities and if they’re kind of public affairs, and comms and sustainability the responsibilities in that. The other side of it is there is the responsibility of adaptation, for up and out, looking up and out rather than in and down at what’s next, and what’s new, what we would call enterprise leadership. How is the executive team balancing those things between the functional responsibility and the enterprise responsibility?
Gordon Dewar (21:36)
I think it’s about keeping space for sort of general conversations about what’s new, what’s worrying us being open and honest about the fact we don’t have the answers. We’re in the middle of a budget process and imagine what that’s like, we’re going to a year of the biggest uncertainty ever. I think we’ve been really good about saying, well let’s establish the kind of strategic intent. Let’s think about how we can answer some of the questions. Let’s think about some of the risks and issues, with recruitment being one of the biggest for everyone at the moment. If you believe as we do that, we’re going to be back with a strong summer next year, then it’s about everyone looking across the table and saying well do you look like you need help? Do I feel as though you’ve answered all the questions I might have, and not been hung up around this sectional stuff. You know, just because you are finance doesn’t mean you can’t think about communications and HR. We’ve actually designed the functions around that, I don’t think we’re now looking at a particularly traditional mix of roles. Gillian in HR is one of the best examples because she now covers business planning, she looks after the customer contact centre, she looks after all the sourcing honestly, so a really wide range of things. Communications, now runs sustainability and part of that’s because we’re just trying to spread the load with less people in a busy environment. But a huge advantage of that is that you get people who are much more multi tasked thinking, much broader about what they’re doing and understanding how they can either get the help of others or to contribute to others. I think it’s also more personally rewarding, while we’re all flat out, and a bit tired at least you feel as though you’re getting that mix of interests and personal development as well as just doing the graft and getting the job done. I’m not sure if we have claimed that we really sat down and said “are we getting that balance right?” but what I would say is, I don’t think anybody’s feeling as though they can’t. On the two weekly meetings we have employees raise any issue, and they get a sensible response from people where people will want to help or people want to engage in the concern or the issue or how we go forward. And we are working in more innovative areas, because it’s kind of a necessity but also because we think that our new threats that need that innovation, that approach. One of the strangest things I suppose coming out of it is we’re now building a solar farm in the middle of a crisis. We would have probably struggled to justify that because we were too busy doing the day job three years ago, but because we’ve actually not had the day job to do in that sense, everything’s been new and challenging. We’ve managed to get that really exciting project around sustainability as well as the business case behind them off the ground, and we’ll be in construction very soon. I think that’s an interesting example of how we’re not just marking time waiting to do what we used to do, we’re now doing things very differently.
Jacqueline Conway (24:31)
Okay, and what would you say then as you look ahead to 2022 are the kind of essential things that your executive team needs to be focused on.
Gordon Dewar (24:43)
We’ve got some of the really clear deliverables, we just need to execute against recruitment being probably the biggest one across the campus. We’ve probably got to recruit and not just us this is our partners, retailers handling companies. We think the campus needs over 1000 people to come by next summer, even with the fact that we’re still down probably at 2014/ 15 levels of demand and this is the tightest employment market we’ve ever seen and it’s inflationary. So that is probably the single biggest risk we have and therefore, we’re utterly focused on the execution of not just our recruitment, but helping the campus get there because it doesn’t matter, if we’re ready if the rest of campus isn’t,it is not going to be a good summer. So that’s the sort of practical thing we do. The other thing that we’re utterly focused on is being incredibly attentive to the data, we’ve now developed not just a budget model but a business analysis model that is more capable than I’ve ever thought possible to respond to nuance and data as it comes in. We know when to turn off X /Y and Z, we know when we can engage in investment and this that and the next thing, and we know how we’re going to respond almost under any sort of growth scenario whether it’s where we hope to get to 11/12 or 13 million passengers or if it’s only maybe hitting 10, we know what the answer is. We’ve managed to get comfortable, which has been quite a struggle for people that are used to certainty and used to being really data driven when forecasting. We’ve managed to get really confident, I think with that uncertainty and just being ready to act as and when it’s required, that’s probably the biggest thing. And then the other one is getting out there and just reassuring people, particularly in light of the latest setback in terms of testing, don’t lose faith, this is going to be fine, we are going to come out of this stronger than we were before. I’m not sure many people outside the industry would think that’s even plausible but we are utterly certain it’s going to happen because of all the work we’ve done and because of the fundamentals of the business. In a sense, we are a lot more confident about all of this than people might expect but it’s about delivering against the risk that we have.
Jacqueline Conway (26:56)
Let me ask about culture and the role your executive team play in kind of cultivating and being role models for your organisations culture.
Gordon Dewar (27:06)
Datums are not a cultural thing I know, but I think it sets the platform for the culture. If you’ve got evidence, or lack of evidence, actually as important, about an issue you think is important, we will have a conversation no matter where you sit in this organisation. So, somebody comes up with a great idea about improving something or somebody comes up with a worry that they don’t think we’re addressing. I think the culture of the organisation is one of assess, and if we’re all agreeing there’s a problem, and that could be an HR problem that could be, are we doing the appraisals right? That could be are we doing health and safety right? So, you know it could be anything across the piece and not all commercial by any stretch, I think will get the attention of people to go and help identify the issue and then look at the solutions and how we do it. I think it’s turned into a really good action oriented collegiate approach. We’re really good at setting up multifunctional teams and getting projects and initiatives looked at. I think, before this crisis we did ask ourselves the question, do we give ourselves time to sit back and look at the more complex stuff? The things that don’t naturally fall into that. And to be brutally honest, I think we’ve realised there was some work to do that. But that’s probably been parked in the short term, we’ve got to get back on to delivering the basics, and then we come back to it. I think what we’ve done in the interim is actually going to set us even better placed to achieve that, because we’ve already blurred some of the edges around where people feel comfortable operating, where people feel they have a say, where people feel they have expertise that they can contribute. The other thing I think about the culture is, the one thing we’ve proven ourselves is, the value of investing in our people. We have used all of the assets on the bench so, we now need to repopulate that bench. We’re going to have to accelerate staff development, staff training, , giving people the tools, not just the practical and the operational side. That leadership type stuff that you’ve worked on with us for many years. So, we’ve got to recognised how valuable that’s been and we now need to do more of that and faster.
Jacqueline Conway (29:14)
And what does that look like for your executive team next year collectively?
Gordon Dewar (29:21)
I think it’s going to be another year of hard work and not a huge amount of fun, I suspect. It will be about making sure that we don’t lose sight of that need to repopulate. So, we are going to have to find room in very, very tight budgets, that look pretty unappetising, to get people in training courses and pay for that development and release people from the day job and all of the things that come with that. I think we’re going to model our behaviour we’re going to show people that despite this being an ongoing crisis, that it is the right time to be investing in things that you know will only pay back in a year from now or two years from now, but it’s if you don’t do it then you will regret it come the next time you’ve got a challenge.
Jacqueline Conway (30:02)
Well, I guess what you’re saying is that the work that had been done before lockdown and COVID happened, actually was part of what helped you then deal with that in the most effective as you did.
Gordon Dewar (30:14)
Absolutely, if you look at the exec team now, everyone that’s taken a step up into these new roles has been through at least an element of our leadership development programme, or through some of the other side training stuff that we did around leadership and values, and so on so forth. I don’t think that would have been possible, if they hadn’t spent the many years in advance of that not just delivering it, but telling people we thought it was important so that they invested in it as well and demonstrated our work. And what better example, than to look around that exec team, all of our promotion and recruitment was internal, which I think is a real testament.
Jacqueline Conway (30:51)
Okay, great. And so just one final thing. What else would be good for listeners to know, that I haven’t asked you?
Gordon Dewar (31:04)
I don’t know. I think the sort of thing we reflected on right from the start is given when you’re confronted by something as big as this is giving yourself space to just express concerns, almost unsubstantiated concerns, the what are you worried about stuff. And I think if you’ve got people that know their stuff, as well as everyone on the team does, and trust the cohort, that is a really, really interesting place to be. It’s not necessarily very uplifting on occasion, when you hear another raft of things that you haven’t worried about before but now you should be. But my God, it lets you think about where you should be spending your time. In the end, there’s always going to be pay back. So, I think the biggest thing I’ve taken from this is in the middle of the crisis, find the quiet moments and have the conversations about what the hell’s worrying you, and sometimes find the opportunity you never thought about in there. So as bad as everything is, or can be there’s always a way of improving it or mitigating the problem or making it slightly better than you thought it otherwise would be. I think that’s been a huge lesson, but it comes from giving yourself the space to sit down and go, right, what’s important? what can we contribute? And what are we going to stand for in the coming months?
Jacqueline Conway (32:39)
Let me just ask one question on the back of that Gordon, what impact has your ownership structure had on your ability to ride this out? And can you anticipate that had there been a different ownership structure you would have been more constrained or less constrained in the decisions that you were able to make?
Gordon Dewar (33:03)
That’s a really good question. I’ll talk about probably culturally, I would say the ownership structure has been fantastic, we are a reflection of JIPS focus on data and analytics and ambition and all the rest of it. We are absolutely benefited by the fact that they are long term investors, which is quite, it’s almost an oxymoron for a private equity based asset company. But their whole view, even though they intend to sell at some point and this has probably delayed that process. The whole view is that you’ll get value by looking at the long term, and really thinking through the fundamentals of the business. I think also just their intrinsic confidence in us and the sector as a long term investable means they’ve not panicked, they’ve not been thinking about offloading us or anything else. So, you know, they’ve invested time, effort and resources. And have been incredibly supportive now of all the propositions we brought to the table. So, you know, I went to them and said, I don’t think we need to do external recruitment, I think we should back up people that development reached and they take it at face value. They do that because they’ve seen it being developed over time. I think an awful lot of externals will want to parachute people in and you will have lots of help from headquarters, which as we all know, is such an enjoyable experience. We’ve had the support, but we’ve not had the uninvited interventions, because there’s been that confidence in us as a team and confidence in the sector. So that’s been really helpful. Would another structure make a difference? I would certainly not like multiple owners, that would be horrendous at the moment. It’s difficult enough to rationalise and deal with uncertainty internally. If you’ve got to have five or six key shareholders all which have different views of the world, that would be really difficult. I think you’d spend an awful lot of time just talking people through stuff rather than achieving anything. I’m glad we’ve got private owners I look around at everyone, I mean you’ve got to acknowledge that the National Health Service has done great things but I’ve looked at the way they’ve been asked to deliver, and I think it’s disgraceful. I think the waste, and ineptitude of the government oversight of that is really, really damaging. It’s one of the most frustrating things I’ve seen, the poor people in the NHS are left to pick up the pieces and do things that nobody should ever be asked to do. And it’s been a success of one sort, but my God, it could be a lot better if people had just applied a bit of logic and a bit of leadership. So yeah, I guess I’m trying to think of other models that may or may not have helped. I think I’m quite pleased I’m not part of an airport group as well, I think that would be a complicating factor. We’ve got a really good sort of sisterly airport relationship with Gatwick, but we’re not governed as a group. So again, people are not trying to impose one size fits all stuff. I think that’s one of the messages is that, when you’re looking for creativity you really need to look in the detail, and then the specifics of your business. So, I think these are all generalities, but these would be the observations I would imagine would be true. But I’ve not spent a huge amount of time thinking of that because we’ve got great owners who have been supportive.
Jacqueline Conway (36:17)
Yeah, great. Okay. Well, thanks so much. That’s been a really great conversation, and it’s been lovely to catch up again. So, thank you, Gordon.
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The organisational peak is a perilous environment. It is more complex and challenging than anything that has gone before. And consequently, both executive tenure and corporate longevity are decreasing. To survive and thrive at the perilous peak, executive leaders need to balance their functional leadership, a focus on execution with enterprise leadership, that is ensuring the organisation adapts in our new world. That is what we will be exploring in the Advanced Executive Leadership podcast. Welcome. I’m your host Jacqueline Conway. I’m the Founder and Managing Director of Walden Croft, a consulting practice dedicated to helping Executives and Executive teams anticipate, navigate and lead at the perilous peak.
In this episode I am in conversation with Gordon Dewar, the Chief Executive at Edinburgh Airport. Gordon had presided over many years of exponential growth. At Edinburgh airport before COVID and lockdowns saw passenger numbers reduced to a mere half of 1% of what they had previously been. Of course, that disruption has continued and, we have seen that travel and tourism have been the worst affected sectors from the pandemic. Gordon, whom I have worked with for several years, talks about what that kind of disruption has been like for him and for everyone at the airport. I hope you enjoy the episode.
Tell me your story Gordon, how did you come to be the Chief Executive of Edinburgh Airport?
Gordon Dewar (1:53)
I summarise it as quite a linear progression of skill development and the focus of what I do through a varied set of organisations and industries. What I mean by that is, it has always been transport based and it has always been commercially driven. From the early days of consultancy, after I graduated it was always about how to advise operators how to invest, how to design profitable and commercial projects and so on. And always using that sort of commercial transport, we are trying to be quite innovative. So, one of the early adopters of simulation, modelling, and transport for example. Again, this theme of data driven, how do we do better analysis? How do we understand the market better? How do we invest better? that has been fundamental. And then the variability, I have been bounced around between consultancy, trains, buses, and ultimately airports since 2007. But for me, that felt like a natural progression that was always about getting into jobs that I find fascinating and getting into jobs that very few people seem to do or think about, or certainly think about in the way that is obvious, and therefore, kept on getting options to do something similar in a slightly different spectrum. Thankfully, that ended up being in the airports which has been by far the most enjoyable because it’s just such an exciting agenda and dealing with international travel and all that means, not just for the industry and for the company and for me personally, but what it means to Scotland in this case, and what it’s meant for however we delivered. Weather it’s in this country or in Bahrain when I had my couple of years as well. So, jumping about geographical and in different sectors within transport, but always that principle of data driven commercial focus on how we’re going to make more money and how we’re going to invest it better.
Jacqueline Conway (3:47)
So obviously, you know, the data side of it is fascinating isn’t it, because you make your forecasts, and you work to those forecasts. I’ve been around and about your business as you’ve been doing that very, very successfully. I remember conversations we had in December 2019, about what the forecast for 2020 might be, then of course, 2020 arrives and up ends the entire world doesn’t it. We saw the impact on Edinburgh Airport and the impact on airports more generally, has been devastating. Do you want to say a little bit about what that was like and where you’re at now?
Gordon Dewar (4:27)
It was really, it was scary, to be honest. It was horrendous because you know the hardest decision I’ve ever made in my career was the one where we lost a third of our colleagues through redundancy because it was a matter of survival. We were a business that to be honest thought we were a fixed cost business, no revenue, suddenly things were pretty scary. Prospects were not highly leveraged, but we have carried a lot of debt as many infrastructure companies did. Therefore, the priority was to make sure it was survivable in terms of not running out of cash and not getting into significantly more difficulties. All of that in an entirely unpredictable world. Even at the start of that when we were at the lowest point of total crisis lockdown in March 2020 I think even then we thought a disaster would be three months of that. And here we are 18 months later. I think while that uncertainty was deeply uncomfortable, while it was horrible to lose colleagues, to see some of the work we have done undone, and with no doubt another number of years before we get back to where we were in 2019, all of which is frustrating, annoying, and particularly when I think some of it’s unnecessary, it’s a bit depressing. But what we have always done is just deploy what we’re good at, and what I mean by that when I talked about forecasting, we have used this time to get into ever more detail about where can we strip costs in the short term? where can we model recoveries? Where can we find additional revenue or better yields? or find ways of encouraging airlines to come back quicker to Edinburgh rather than somewhere else, if it’s about a market share, play. I think what we have done again, is deploy what we’re good at, which is data driven analysis of our business and the opportunities, and then communicate that internally and externally to give ourselves the best chance. I think the one thing I am absolutely confident about is by the time we’re back to our 2019 levels of passenger demand, which is a bit just short of 15 million, we will be in a far stronger position relatively speaking than we were in 2019. What I mean by that is, as a market share in Scotland and the market share beyond Scotland actually, and in terms of the mix of airlines we have and the view they have in our marketplace. We will have done so many other things within the business to get more productivity, expand our revenue opportunities and just have used that time to really fundamentally rebase the business. And therefore, I think in a funny sort of way, if you’ve got the patience, which I haven’t, if you’ve got the patience to wait until 2024 or 25, this may look like one of the best outcomes we’ve seen for the airport in terms of an external view of what is the strength of Edinburgh airport in our market.
Jacqueline Conway (7:06)
But let me ask the question that might be on a lot of listeners minds, because of course, you’re just along the road. I know that Biden flew into here as many of the world leaders did, and then scuttled the long road to COP26, just a few weeks ago. Climate is on the agenda, sustainability is on the agenda, has the impact of lockdown and COVID changed your thinking on that? And do you think it’s changed people’s thinking more generally, potential passengers thinking?
Gordon Dewar (7:39)
I’m not sure I think it was coming anyway. I think COP26 brought a real focus in Scotland obviously. And I think therefore, that has changed the short-term dynamic, and the attention and the detail and some of the challenging questions. But I think the industry has been working on this for a number of years now in the full knowledge that for many on the environmental side, we are seen as the fifth horsemen of the apocalypse in terms of they cannot see the solution, and therefore their answer is stop doing it. We as an industry are confident that we can see the solution to net zero and actually ahead of UK government targets. Sustainable aviation and umbrella organisations for airlines, airports, engine manufacturers, aircraft manufacturers and fuel providers are all bullish about what we can do, how we can take certainly very early gains on the carbon intensity of a passenger trip. But actually, a longer-term view is how you get to zero using things like hydrogen and electricity, but also sustainable aviation fuels. While jet engines are a trickier technology than many other parts of society to see a rapid path away from it, if there is a sensible debate about the value that transport and aviation provides in terms of broader value, and we can just have a more time conscious view of how do we get to net zero, and maybe not the first or the second, but that we all understand where we are, I think we can make a really big contribution to some of the other solutions as well. A great example of that is Scotland’s biggest employer is tourism, we’ve got a pretty aggressive anti aviation debate going on around some, I think fairly ill-informed without anybody suggesting well, what does that mean if we can’t get here? Because there are no other options but aviation to get to the north tip of a north west, European Island. So you know, I think I’m a bit frustrated by the single issue and knee jerk stuff because if people actually look at the data, look at the proposals, look at the way the industry has responded already, I think that there’ll be a lot more than converged about the opportunities in front of us and instead of saying stop it, we should be saying, well, how do we demonstrate the best behaviours that others might want to follow?
Jacqueline Conway (9:55)
Let’s go back to the data point because you’re talking about being data driven, I’ve observed that kind of up close here at Edinburgh Airport, and data is a wonderful thing and making data driven decisions for periods of continuity. But for periods of extreme discontinuity, it’s less helpful. How has that been for you? Because we’ve probably experienced the greatest period of discontinuity in all our lives. So what impact has that had on data being a key driver of decision makings?
Gordon Dewar (10:33)
I think that’s a really interesting view. I mean certainly what we’ve got is no confidence in any forecast. And that’s an uncomfortable place where we’re really good at that, you know we used to be within two or three percentage points, just about everything in the business. Because we have that continuity, we understood that history. What we’ve pivoted to now is deepening our understanding of relationships and outcomes. What I mean by that is, a really practical example is in the past, we had pretty good understanding about the different implications of an inbound and an outbound passenger, as an example, so somebody flying in from abroad and spending time in Scotland versus a Scot going off somewhere. And it didn’t really matter that much because you had continuity, where there was a sort of a growing trend toward more inbound as a whole, but it was quite slow moving and therefore wouldn’t make a profound impact on your forecast if you got it slightly wrong, or worse, slightly misunderstanding what’s going on. But now what we’re seeing is this massive discontinuity that we’ve decimated inbound demand, because the UK for all sorts of reasons is a very unattractive place to come at the moment. We’ve therefore got a massive focus on outbound then. Why does that matter? Well, people don’t bring their cars with inbound passengers, don’t pay for car parking, outbound passengers don’t buy car rental, and so on and so forth. For example, Scots don’t buy tartan scarves as gifts, we’ve got to get into that understanding. And we’ve been forced to really understand that in much more detail. Now, there is no more data in the marketplace than we have ever had. But this is the biggest experiment you’ve ever seen, because we’ve got data points that we’ve never had before, because we’ve never seen behaviours and outcomes like this. There is one example of what we’re doing is deepening our understanding of the subtleties of the data. Not because we’re producing a forecast we are any more confident about but we’ll know what to do when we do know what the answer is and therefore, we’re going to be far better harvesting, benefit planning for the shifts when they come, responding quicker because we’ll know what we’re looking for. And we know what to turn on and off that at the right time. So, you know, we will come out of this with another layer of understanding about how our business operates and where the opportunities and risks lie.
Jacqueline Conway (12:46)
As we sit here, we’re 18 months into COVID, maybe even more, and you know, it’s winter 2021 /2022. What’s on the horizon then for Edinburgh airport?
Gordon Dewar (13:02)
I think we’ve seen these different waves come and go, I think there’s a couple of things that we are very confident about. We’re really confident that the underlying demand for aviation is going to bounce as soon as people are allowed to travel. We know that different market segments will respond differently, business travel will be different from leisure travel, we know that inbound will be different to outbound for various reasons. But what we know is inherently people still see the value in travelling and come back. So, this is a case of when not if we’re going to get back into that growth trajectory and as I say, I think will actually strengthen our relative market position. We’ll recover faster than most, we’ll end up better and stronger than we started from, and so on. I’ve got no concerns whatsoever about the longer-term strength of the business, our ability to be successful and our ability to move forward. I’ve got utter uncertainty about when do we get back to 15 million passengers, when do we comfortably predicted we’re not going to see yet another lockdown or travel restrictions coming in. And there’s no point in worrying about that, in a sense, you know the one thing we have certainly learnt is government doesn’t pay any attention. So, we’ve stopped beating our heads against a wall. We just started trying to give government options and some requests that I hope will respond to their interesting decisions about how they go forward, so none of it is a long-term worry. We’ve also seen even with a relatively modest level of recovery, because we were so good at cost reduction, we’ve been back in profitability, cashflow positivity for the last four months despite being still down at sort of less than half of the traditional demand that we’re used to. Now that in itself is a massive success, nobody thought that we could get that level of cost reduction. And actually, when we benchmark against every other airport we can see data for, we’re miles ahead as well.
Jacqueline Conway (14:50)
Why is that?
Gordon Dewar (14:53)
I think part of it is we just aggressively went after it from day one, because we’re prepared to do so we’ve got the tools, we’ve got the individuals with that mindset, we’ve got a whole concept that everything is done on a bottom up basis. You don’t say “oh, it’s all too difficult” or “that’s a fixed cost base, we’ll never look at that”. We went round every single budget item and said, what’s needed? what’s necessary? what can we do to reduce it? If we reduce it now, can we keep it out? We’ve done some really, really creative things, and what’s interesting is, we hope to keep at least 25% of the savings permanently as well. So, these are not all emergency crash, beat up the supply chain or do one off things, some of this stuff is actually going to profoundly change the productivity of the business. I think, again it comes from the combination the attitude of, “we have been massively successful” attitude of confidence in the long term and therefore deploy what you know, deploy the skills you have and harvest what you can in the short term and be ready for the recovery.
Jacqueline Conway (15:53)
So, let me ask about that “harvest what we can in the short term”, because before the crash, there was always an energy around Edinburgh Airport. There was always a sense, with everyone from you right down to baggage handlers and people in security. And I experienced that as someone who was consulting here but also as a regular passenger, there was an energy and a vibrancy that it’s a hugely action orientated organisation. Then the action was kind of ripped out from under you. So, psychologically, what’s that been like for you and for your people to go from, a momentum where you’re going at a really fast pace, making decisions, implementing things quickly and well to being in a very radically different situation?
Gordon Dewar (16:42)
I don’t think anything has changed around fast pace rapid implementation, it’s been a lot less fun and it’s been a lot less certain as we’ve talked about, but fundamentally the sort of culture of nothing’s impossible, let’s look again, let’s go back to first principles, let’s challenge ourselves as much as possible, is motivated by something entirely different now. In this case, survival and then into recovery it’s a lot less fun, because you’re not celebrating root starts, you’re not celebrating the off the scale growth, and record after record. But nothing’s really changed in terms of the approach you bring to that, because I think it’s founded on good business principles in the first place, which as we know is what makes our business successful. It’s not a difficult prospect in terms of understanding the model of growing volume, attracting new airlines, giving passengers choice, getting more of them, and giving them things to spend the money on when they get here, none of that’s changed. But you’ve just got to apply yourself to the new scenarios, the new challenges the new essential, where do you spend your time today? And I think we’re really good at that, we’re just very action oriented, saying “well what’s the next challenge in front of us?”
Jacqueline Conway (17:57)
And let’s talk about the team because obviously, my key focus with you here is at the executive level. How are your executives stepping up to these challenges that you’re describing?
Gordon Dewar (18:11)
Well, the first thing I’d say is its quite new exec, there’s been a lot of change. I mean one of the things we decided when we knew we had to have massive cost reduction is we had to lead from the top. We’ve had people taking early voluntary retirement, we’ve had people sort of stepping away into other opportunities and we’ve deliberately thinned down the exec. All of the people that have stepped up into that new role are from within, which again is great sign of the evidence of what we’re invested in, how we develop people, that bench strength that we’ve developed over the years that we’ve now used. I’ve got less exec and there’s a lot fresher faces if you like, and some of the longer serving people have taken a step back. Nobody kind of went the way that we went, well, that’s not true, we had to look at particular functions, things like our projects. Clearly when you go from a 60 million capital spend to five then you know you’ve got to change into that. There were certain roles that we had to, unfortunately loose through redundancy but everyone that’s now in exec has either stepped up to a bigger or broader role or has just stepped up into what was their previous boss’s position. But again, that has been evidence of that investment in the culture, the training the capability. So, what does that mean now? Well it means we’ve got a really enthusiastic bunch of people who are totally committed to the business. I think this is the first time I can remember where there’s zero friction within the exec, sometimes a bit of constructive tension is good as we know, but this isn’t the time for it, this is about everyone pulling in the right direction. A great example is we’ve lost our chief operating officer in a good way down to Gatwick, they took on a role to try and replicate what we were doing up here down in Gatwick where they weren’t being quite as successful at the time. The two individuals who have stepped up in his absence, instead of potentially competing have actually forged a really effective link of well, how do we cover each other’s back, help each other out and that was a big step forward in their career paths. I think it’s been an absolute exemplar of it, whether we’ve come at that where again, database, what do we need to work on together? Let’s not get too hung up on job titles and you know, which particular segment we’re in we just all need to sort of put a shoulder to the wheel. It’s been really impressive. I think about the flexibility people have brought, that’s massively impressive about the workload that people have shouldered and really rewarding to see just how well our teams come together.
Jacqueline Conway (20:49)
You’ll have heard me talk before about when you get to the executive level, like an infinity loop, you’re trying to hold in balance, executive leaders tend to hold and balance their functional responsibilities. So, if they’re a chief financial officer, they have financial responsibilities and if they’re kind of public affairs, and comms and sustainability the responsibilities in that. The other side of it is there is the responsibility of adaptation, for up and out, looking up and out rather than in and down at what’s next, and what’s new, what we would call enterprise leadership. How is the executive team balancing those things between the functional responsibility and the enterprise responsibility?
Gordon Dewar (21:36)
I think it’s about keeping space for sort of general conversations about what’s new, what’s worrying us being open and honest about the fact we don’t have the answers. We’re in the middle of a budget process and imagine what that’s like, we’re going to a year of the biggest uncertainty ever. I think we’ve been really good about saying, well let’s establish the kind of strategic intent. Let’s think about how we can answer some of the questions. Let’s think about some of the risks and issues, with recruitment being one of the biggest for everyone at the moment. If you believe as we do that, we’re going to be back with a strong summer next year, then it’s about everyone looking across the table and saying well do you look like you need help? Do I feel as though you’ve answered all the questions I might have, and not been hung up around this sectional stuff. You know, just because you are finance doesn’t mean you can’t think about communications and HR. We’ve actually designed the functions around that, I don’t think we’re now looking at a particularly traditional mix of roles. Gillian in HR is one of the best examples because she now covers business planning, she looks after the customer contact centre, she looks after all the sourcing honestly, so a really wide range of things. Communications, now runs sustainability and part of that’s because we’re just trying to spread the load with less people in a busy environment. But a huge advantage of that is that you get people who are much more multi tasked thinking, much broader about what they’re doing and understanding how they can either get the help of others or to contribute to others. I think it’s also more personally rewarding, while we’re all flat out, and a bit tired at least you feel as though you’re getting that mix of interests and personal development as well as just doing the graft and getting the job done. I’m not sure if we have claimed that we really sat down and said “are we getting that balance right?” but what I would say is, I don’t think anybody’s feeling as though they can’t. On the two weekly meetings we have employees raise any issue, and they get a sensible response from people where people will want to help or people want to engage in the concern or the issue or how we go forward. And we are working in more innovative areas, because it’s kind of a necessity but also because we think that our new threats that need that innovation, that approach. One of the strangest things I suppose coming out of it is we’re now building a solar farm in the middle of a crisis. We would have probably struggled to justify that because we were too busy doing the day job three years ago, but because we’ve actually not had the day job to do in that sense, everything’s been new and challenging. We’ve managed to get that really exciting project around sustainability as well as the business case behind them off the ground, and we’ll be in construction very soon. I think that’s an interesting example of how we’re not just marking time waiting to do what we used to do, we’re now doing things very differently.
Jacqueline Conway (24:31)
Okay, and what would you say then as you look ahead to 2022 are the kind of essential things that your executive team needs to be focused on.
Gordon Dewar (24:43)
We’ve got some of the really clear deliverables, we just need to execute against recruitment being probably the biggest one across the campus. We’ve probably got to recruit and not just us this is our partners, retailers handling companies. We think the campus needs over 1000 people to come by next summer, even with the fact that we’re still down probably at 2014/ 15 levels of demand and this is the tightest employment market we’ve ever seen and it’s inflationary. So that is probably the single biggest risk we have and therefore, we’re utterly focused on the execution of not just our recruitment, but helping the campus get there because it doesn’t matter, if we’re ready if the rest of campus isn’t,it is not going to be a good summer. So that’s the sort of practical thing we do. The other thing that we’re utterly focused on is being incredibly attentive to the data, we’ve now developed not just a budget model but a business analysis model that is more capable than I’ve ever thought possible to respond to nuance and data as it comes in. We know when to turn off X /Y and Z, we know when we can engage in investment and this that and the next thing, and we know how we’re going to respond almost under any sort of growth scenario whether it’s where we hope to get to 11/12 or 13 million passengers or if it’s only maybe hitting 10, we know what the answer is. We’ve managed to get comfortable, which has been quite a struggle for people that are used to certainty and used to being really data driven when forecasting. We’ve managed to get really confident, I think with that uncertainty and just being ready to act as and when it’s required, that’s probably the biggest thing. And then the other one is getting out there and just reassuring people, particularly in light of the latest setback in terms of testing, don’t lose faith, this is going to be fine, we are going to come out of this stronger than we were before. I’m not sure many people outside the industry would think that’s even plausible but we are utterly certain it’s going to happen because of all the work we’ve done and because of the fundamentals of the business. In a sense, we are a lot more confident about all of this than people might expect but it’s about delivering against the risk that we have.
Jacqueline Conway (26:56)
Let me ask about culture and the role your executive team play in kind of cultivating and being role models for your organisations culture.
Gordon Dewar (27:06)
Datums are not a cultural thing I know, but I think it sets the platform for the culture. If you’ve got evidence, or lack of evidence, actually as important, about an issue you think is important, we will have a conversation no matter where you sit in this organisation. So, somebody comes up with a great idea about improving something or somebody comes up with a worry that they don’t think we’re addressing. I think the culture of the organisation is one of assess, and if we’re all agreeing there’s a problem, and that could be an HR problem that could be, are we doing the appraisals right? That could be are we doing health and safety right? So, you know it could be anything across the piece and not all commercial by any stretch, I think will get the attention of people to go and help identify the issue and then look at the solutions and how we do it. I think it’s turned into a really good action oriented collegiate approach. We’re really good at setting up multifunctional teams and getting projects and initiatives looked at. I think, before this crisis we did ask ourselves the question, do we give ourselves time to sit back and look at the more complex stuff? The things that don’t naturally fall into that. And to be brutally honest, I think we’ve realised there was some work to do that. But that’s probably been parked in the short term, we’ve got to get back on to delivering the basics, and then we come back to it. I think what we’ve done in the interim is actually going to set us even better placed to achieve that, because we’ve already blurred some of the edges around where people feel comfortable operating, where people feel they have a say, where people feel they have expertise that they can contribute. The other thing I think about the culture is, the one thing we’ve proven ourselves is, the value of investing in our people. We have used all of the assets on the bench so, we now need to repopulate that bench. We’re going to have to accelerate staff development, staff training, , giving people the tools, not just the practical and the operational side. That leadership type stuff that you’ve worked on with us for many years. So, we’ve got to recognised how valuable that’s been and we now need to do more of that and faster.
Jacqueline Conway (29:14)
And what does that look like for your executive team next year collectively?
Gordon Dewar (29:21)
I think it’s going to be another year of hard work and not a huge amount of fun, I suspect. It will be about making sure that we don’t lose sight of that need to repopulate. So, we are going to have to find room in very, very tight budgets, that look pretty unappetising, to get people in training courses and pay for that development and release people from the day job and all of the things that come with that. I think we’re going to model our behaviour we’re going to show people that despite this being an ongoing crisis, that it is the right time to be investing in things that you know will only pay back in a year from now or two years from now, but it’s if you don’t do it then you will regret it come the next time you’ve got a challenge.
Jacqueline Conway (30:02)
Well, I guess what you’re saying is that the work that had been done before lockdown and COVID happened, actually was part of what helped you then deal with that in the most effective as you did.
Gordon Dewar (30:14)
Absolutely, if you look at the exec team now, everyone that’s taken a step up into these new roles has been through at least an element of our leadership development programme, or through some of the other side training stuff that we did around leadership and values, and so on so forth. I don’t think that would have been possible, if they hadn’t spent the many years in advance of that not just delivering it, but telling people we thought it was important so that they invested in it as well and demonstrated our work. And what better example, than to look around that exec team, all of our promotion and recruitment was internal, which I think is a real testament.
Jacqueline Conway (30:51)
Okay, great. And so just one final thing. What else would be good for listeners to know, that I haven’t asked you?
Gordon Dewar (31:04)
I don’t know. I think the sort of thing we reflected on right from the start is given when you’re confronted by something as big as this is giving yourself space to just express concerns, almost unsubstantiated concerns, the what are you worried about stuff. And I think if you’ve got people that know their stuff, as well as everyone on the team does, and trust the cohort, that is a really, really interesting place to be. It’s not necessarily very uplifting on occasion, when you hear another raft of things that you haven’t worried about before but now you should be. But my God, it lets you think about where you should be spending your time. In the end, there’s always going to be pay back. So, I think the biggest thing I’ve taken from this is in the middle of the crisis, find the quiet moments and have the conversations about what the hell’s worrying you, and sometimes find the opportunity you never thought about in there. So as bad as everything is, or can be there’s always a way of improving it or mitigating the problem or making it slightly better than you thought it otherwise would be. I think that’s been a huge lesson, but it comes from giving yourself the space to sit down and go, right, what’s important? what can we contribute? And what are we going to stand for in the coming months?
Jacqueline Conway (32:39)
Let me just ask one question on the back of that Gordon, what impact has your ownership structure had on your ability to ride this out? And can you anticipate that had there been a different ownership structure you would have been more constrained or less constrained in the decisions that you were able to make?
Gordon Dewar (33:03)
That’s a really good question. I’ll talk about probably culturally, I would say the ownership structure has been fantastic, we are a reflection of JIPS focus on data and analytics and ambition and all the rest of it. We are absolutely benefited by the fact that they are long term investors, which is quite, it’s almost an oxymoron for a private equity based asset company. But their whole view, even though they intend to sell at some point and this has probably delayed that process. The whole view is that you’ll get value by looking at the long term, and really thinking through the fundamentals of the business. I think also just their intrinsic confidence in us and the sector as a long term investable means they’ve not panicked, they’ve not been thinking about offloading us or anything else. So, you know, they’ve invested time, effort and resources. And have been incredibly supportive now of all the propositions we brought to the table. So, you know, I went to them and said, I don’t think we need to do external recruitment, I think we should back up people that development reached and they take it at face value. They do that because they’ve seen it being developed over time. I think an awful lot of externals will want to parachute people in and you will have lots of help from headquarters, which as we all know, is such an enjoyable experience. We’ve had the support, but we’ve not had the uninvited interventions, because there’s been that confidence in us as a team and confidence in the sector. So that’s been really helpful. Would another structure make a difference? I would certainly not like multiple owners, that would be horrendous at the moment. It’s difficult enough to rationalise and deal with uncertainty internally. If you’ve got to have five or six key shareholders all which have different views of the world, that would be really difficult. I think you’d spend an awful lot of time just talking people through stuff rather than achieving anything. I’m glad we’ve got private owners I look around at everyone, I mean you’ve got to acknowledge that the National Health Service has done great things but I’ve looked at the way they’ve been asked to deliver, and I think it’s disgraceful. I think the waste, and ineptitude of the government oversight of that is really, really damaging. It’s one of the most frustrating things I’ve seen, the poor people in the NHS are left to pick up the pieces and do things that nobody should ever be asked to do. And it’s been a success of one sort, but my God, it could be a lot better if people had just applied a bit of logic and a bit of leadership. So yeah, I guess I’m trying to think of other models that may or may not have helped. I think I’m quite pleased I’m not part of an airport group as well, I think that would be a complicating factor. We’ve got a really good sort of sisterly airport relationship with Gatwick, but we’re not governed as a group. So again, people are not trying to impose one size fits all stuff. I think that’s one of the messages is that, when you’re looking for creativity you really need to look in the detail, and then the specifics of your business. So, I think these are all generalities, but these would be the observations I would imagine would be true. But I’ve not spent a huge amount of time thinking of that because we’ve got great owners who have been supportive.
Jacqueline Conway (36:17)
Yeah, great. Okay. Well, thanks so much. That’s been a really great conversation, and it’s been lovely to catch up again. So, thank you, Gordon.
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What’s required from Executive Leaders has changed. Find out how executive leaders and executive teams can survive and thrive in our disrupted world. Interviews with CEOs and insights from Waldencroft’s Dr Jacqueline Conway.
By Jacqueline Conway…
Dr Jacqueline Conway works with CEOs and executive teams as they fully step into their collective enterprise-wide leadership, helping them transform their impact and effectiveness.
Jacqueline is Waldencroft’s Managing Director. Based in Edinburgh, she works globally with organisations facing disruption in the new world of work.
